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Some people like them, they do have at least some ties to a Russian company which is a no from me at the moment.
Paying for Yandex APIs is a product of their goal to be the best search engine available. They pay for access to nearly every major search provider and wouldn’t want to lose access to Yandex results just because of the country they’re located in.
I think it’s valid to boycott Russian companies, or any companies that supports them. Justifying it to be the best search engine doesn’t necessarily make it right. And yet I still have a paid Kagi subscription, but I don’t blame people who don’t, and think their use of Yandex should be more obvious.
Just had a conversation about this. I’ll copypasta what I said there.
tl;dr: they’re all in on AI (their own model, FastGPT, which is terrible), they make some very questionable business decisions with limited funds, and have a poor understanding of what Personally Identifiable Information (PII) actually is.
I could compromise on some of these things, but if I’m going to pay for their service as a Google alternative, I need to compromise less than I do with Google already.
Also DDG is a perfectly viable option.
Appreciate you linking in your blog post. I’ve been on the fence about Kagi and you bring up a lot of good points informed by sources I’m unlikely to delve into.
To put you back on the fence, it had the best algorithm when I tested it some time ago. It showed me things I wanted by default. Google always needs some massaging and ddg needs a !g
I am open to the idea of paying for quality services that put the customer first. Hell, I pay for my email and have done so for years.
But Kagi has always squicked me out a bit. Some of their business practices over the years have been rather questionable, especially their push into AI which is exactly the sort of thing someone looking at Kagi would probably want to avoid. They are also very expensive. They’re one of those services that just assumes everyone is American so they just give a $ cost and don’t specify beyond that, so I’m going to assume their prices are in USD which means a plan for my dad and myself is $21CAD a month. That absurdly overpriced for a search engine subscription.
To put that into perspective: A YouTube premium family plan covers up to 6 accounts and is the same price and includes unlimited video and music streaming. Thoughts about YouTube aside and looking at this from a pure value perspective, paying that same price just for a search engine is a godawful shit deal. Do you know what my email costs per month? $1.25CAD
With DuckDuckGo around it is hard to justify paying for Kagi personally.
Highly recommend giving this blog post that takes a little bit of a deep dive into Kagi.
https://マリウス.com/doubting-your-favorite-web-search-engine/
(Not scary url, just punycode) 👍
The author surely likes that the mascot is a dog. It feels more of a read and analysis of the terms of use than a deep dive of the tool but it was a good reading and I liked the suggestions.
I also liked the “reminder”.
Edit: you should share this in some community as a post, every time I see this kind of website (pure content no-nonsense) it is shared is in the comments. 15 years ago this kind of stuff was easy to find, but nowadays, I only see them in comment sections. Even the search engine recommended around here would list a bunch of junk in the first pages.
I’m running a local SearXNG which still provides usable results. I don’t see the point in paying for what’s basically a smart phone book. If everything fails, I’m going full #oldweb and use #webrings or some of those retro lists.
No, it’s just trading one centralized search product that is free and profits by using your data and manipulating you, for another that you have to pay for and profits from you more directly but still has financial incentive to keeping you engaged and searching instead of finding. Run your own decentralized SearXNG instead and take it into your own hands. Search isn’t something that should be controlled by anyone who’s in it for a profit.
still has financial incentive to keeping you engaged and searching instead of finding
How so
Yeah, this is not the case as they run on a subscription based model.
I used Kagi for a while. I stopped because it’s prohibitively expensive, and rather than prioritizing lowering prices they kept giving me AI features I did not want at all - hell, it’s the kind of shit I was paying to get away from. Mix direct support for Russian companies into the mix, and you have an expensive AI fueled multi-purpose web monstrosity that supports war crimes. No thanks. I just wanted a search engine.
Their search results were good though. I wouldn’t mind supporting a subscription based model, but I’m sick and tired of tech bros and their bullshit.
Why would you conclude that a subscription based model makes them immune from corrupt financial incentives? Quite the opposite. That’s my whole point.
Well, yeah, they’re run by a corporation, which I guess means they need to show infinite growth to return value to stockholders. If so they can keep growing on subscriptions for a while, but eventually they’ll turn on their customers. So fair enough.
I think that’s part of my problem with them honestly. They seem to always want to grow and do more, but I would rather have seen them focus on search and make the subscription more affordable. But as they need growth I guess that’s not possible.
Kagi gave me weird hype vibes like Private Internet Access. Very cult-sounding/ hard to tell what’s a paid advert when everyone is so rabidly opinionated and it’s a bit of a niche to begin with.
I’ve tried it since then and it’s actually very good. I’ve used DuckDuckGo for years and 30% of my searches go to google for a second opinion. With Kagi, that number is more like 10-20%. It’s designed with users in mind and actually helps you find things not by actively subverting your will, but my giving you tools to build better queries and better results.
I’m still trying to reconcile my thoughts about FOSS and such but the results are the closest I’ve found to early Google. I don’t care much for AI, but I used it to accurately identify an unknown wire connector on a cable I found and the model of a keyboard someone was selling in classifieds and didn’t actually list in the description (this one took a few tries).
I’ve decided for now I’m going to put them in the same category as some of the stuff Louis Rossman is involved in which also isn’t the perfect FOSS licence though its in the direction of freedom.
I tried it, and liked it, but stopped using it based on cost. If it was open source or somehow contributed to the open web, I would continue paying for it.
I went searching for a new search engine. I tried SearXNG, but I wasn’t impressed with the results. So now I use duckduckgo and ecosia, because if I have to indirectly use google, at least I can get some trees planted in the process.
They added AI which I thought was one of the main points of using an alternative search engine so you could get away from that nonsense?
I use Kagi because the truth is all other corporate alternatives at this point are unusable swill.
That said, I do not like the company and disagree with their choices in many aspects.
For one, while they don’t force you to use AI features, there isn’t a way to explicitly turn them off for your account, there always the opportunity to rack up token costs if you accidently hit one of the AI buttons.
They still don’t run their own index, instead complacent to just pay the other search providers. Additionally, if you’re trying to escape Google… Kagi runs on Google Cloud Services.
There’s more complaints, and I’m sure others will chime in, but that’s my take.
What specifically do you think is hard to avoid? I’ve never accidentally triggered a quick answer, personally
As far as I can tell, you have to completely disable all keyboard shortcuts or else when you press
Aanywhere that isn’t the search box you get dumped immediately into their AI assistant prompted with whatever you already had in the search bar.It didn’t track me more than a few pennies, but on principle the several times that happened made me angry.
Apparently some of the news views in search are also easy to dump you into AI land. There’s community CSS add on that hides all that stuff now, but I wish the company would let me just disable the AI traps.
