According to Pew Research Center, 77% of US adults now support in-classroom phone bans for middle and high school students, marking the second consecutive year that support...
My disagreements with the policy are twofold, but I was a weird kid. And I am a weird adult.
Firstly, when my social studies teacher or my American history teacher tries to pass state propaganda as fact, I want to have the internet available to find sources either that confirm what I’m being taught or refut it. And similarly when our chemistry class can only provide a poor, hazy image of what we’re doing, I want to be able to go online and get a better one.
We didn’t have the internet when I was in school in the eighties, and instead, we had shitty textbooks and a state mandated syllabus. It was evident, even then, that we were being indoctrinated with an agenda, and being denied informed consent.
And as a naïve kid, I believed my schooling and grew up Republican… Eventually, I’d learn how much bullshit was spoon fed to me, and that our school districts, in fact, do not have an agenda to equip students for adult life, rather are instruments of control.
And secondly, the internet provides lifelines online for kids at risk, such as neurodivergents, LGBT+, kids in dysfunctional homes. And they should have access to them. I didn’t have those resources, and I believe my outcome is worse for it.
I get it, regarding bullying. Social media harassment is a problem, but by comparison I was cornered and outnumbered three to one by kids twice my size. Kids do not require social media to hurt. Since it was their word against mine school administrators sided with my assailants. Every time. I’d work out later they just hate weakling kids, and believe I should be able to hold my own against such odds.
I can assure you kids will be bullied anyway, just as sex trafficking increased when SESTA / FOSTA cut off internet resources to sex traffickers (and killed personal ads and ended online sex worker support groups.)
But then, I’m neurodivergent and was in that gap in which I was quite bright and interested in learning, but had testing difficulties so I wasn’t eligible for gifted programs. The mainstream school district wasn’t intended for me. But then there wasn’t a place for me at all.
The US state education districts are not being run in good faith, prioritizing obedience over critical thinking skills, ideological doctrine over factual history and enrichment of companies and administrators over paying faculty and budgeting learning materials. Restricting students from their own resources is yet another admission that the US does care what happens to students, and reinforces the notion that schools are not institutions of learning, but detainment centers to lock kids up and keep them out of mischief until they are legally responsible for their actions.
But as I said. I was a weird kid. And my schools assured I would never live it down.
American history teacher tries to pass state propaganda as fact, I want to have the internet available to find sources either that confirm what I’m being taught or refut it.
In high school we had a mandatory senior year “Americanism vs Communism” (AVC) class, if ever there were an obvious propaganda slot - taught by retired navy no less. In reality, he didn’t know much about Communism and had the good sense to keep his mouth shut about it, basically taught freshman Civics all over again.
The problem I have with your position is: you can find anything and everything on the internet, from stone cold facts to complete fiction and everything in-between, and especially with AI assistance in building websites it’s becoming harder than ever to differentiate between the two. Now, you get some 9 year old who lives in a 3 generation Faux news viewing household, hears “the facts” from all his family and all their friends every day, armed with a browser full of shortcuts to all the “Best” websites - I, as teacher, absolutely do NOT have time to knock your head off and screw it back on straight, nor would that be a good thing for me to do career wise. FAR FAR easier to get 45 minutes of captive time to say what I want to say - which may or may not be fed to me by the state censor board - and at least give you one perspective instead of having open debate with 30 children and their website “sources” every day, all period long. Having said that, maybe 10% of classroom time should be devoted to intelligent, safe, thoughtful internet research of the topic at hand - but not every time a child thinks they have all the answers.
Our AVC teacher was about 5’4" - MAJOR Napoleon complex - he didn’t give a damn about the anti-communist propaganda, his (mostly failed) goal was to instill respect and discipline in our about to graduate teenage minds… That was his core driver every class every day all 90 days that he “had us.” Lots of teachers have these personal agendas, they’re not all bad, and it’s actually an important part of your education to experience some diversity among your teachers like that - you never know when you’ll meet someone more or less like them in real life, and having that school experience might just teach you how to work better with the versions you meet in real life.
Your doom-scroll will always be waiting there for you at home, if your parents allow it. If you’ve made it to 18 years of age and still feel repressed, you’re welcome to make your own way in the world and discover the truths, lies, and half truths that await you all on your own. I’ll submit: if you’ve got enough skepticism to fact check your teacher in class, you can probably resist the brain washing without needing instant gratification from “sources you trust.” And, classroom time isn’t for you to convince your 12 year old peers how wrong that tool at the front of the room is, you’ll have plenty of time outside of class for that.
My concern is that, as I said, they lied to me and I believed them. My first logic and critical thinking class was in freshman college, where I learned that media literacy is about checking multiple sources that don’t like each other very much. The facts that are consistent between them are most likely the actual facts. I was the sucker who got owned by the indoctrination system.
Media literacy became super important in the aughts during the George W. Bush administration. The White House started giving preferential treatment to correspondents that covered only approved stories and kept the US in a positive light. (It marked the beginning of the end of free journalism within news agencies) Foreign sources started covering the extrajudicial torture programs and the use of PMCs in Iraq and the International War on Terror. It became really important for Americans to cross examine sources to determine for themselves what was really going on.
Today, it creeps me out to hear kids talk about the 9/11 attacks, the Iraq war and the international war on terror, and cite as fact details where I distinctly remember otherwise.
In the present era, we have huge swaths of Americans in FOX News silos, since FOX, like an abusive domestic partner, encourages its viewership to cut off all other sources. We need to be teaching media literacy in grade school. We should be teaching how to use the internet as a tool and not a substitute for social interaction.
When the US proscribed alcohol consumption from 18 years to 21 years, the rate of alcohol related crime and DUIs didn’t change, rather they just got older, and more people were imprisoned for it because they were old enough to know better (allegedly). If we cut off internet access to kids until they’re 18, or even the current proposals to raise the age from 13 to 16, it only means kids will be less experienced and less prepared at a later age.
And kids who are diverse, and fit outside the white, straight, normal mainstream, presently are utilizing resources on the internet to help them cope in a society that doesn’t like deviance very much. These resources literally save lives.
I think an education system that actually took itself seriously, and intended to teach kids in good faith will be able to not only handle kids having internet access, but will be able to integrate its use into education, better preparing children for adulthood.
But also, as I said, I am an outlier. I’m neurodivergent and I’m queer, so I do not have the pulse of the children of the US. In the way I assume not all men are in concurrence with the manosphere, I also submit not all children are daft and need to be taught in single syllables without distractions. If they are, we should get rid of school sports leagues. I suspect more kids would benefit from internet access and robust training in media literacy (including social media savvy) than would be aided by a device ban in school (or by age-gating social media).
Note: There are actual studies about the harms social media has on kids, and the scientific consensus is that harms are significantly less than what is being claimed to promote age verification. It’s looking a lot like the same moral panic that occurred about video games, violent movies and television. But then big social media companies like Facebook, X and Google would enjoy the reduction in competition from smaller sights that would result from an AV mandate, hence they are lobbying to mandate locking up the internet.
I was the sucker who got owned by the indoctrination system.
Unfortunately, as a young moldable mind, you probably would have been owned faster and harder by the unregulated internet than any school teacher ever could.
important for Americans to cross examine sources
It always was. The difference for Bush Jr was that Americans could pull up Al Jazerra, RT, and directly chat with all kinds of people all over the globe - so the press had to start pressing harder. Back with Bush Sr in Kuwait, I had a friend from Jordan who spent his evenings listening to his short-wave to get “real news” about what was going on back home - what he heard was apparently a lot more accurate and complete than what we got from TV. It has always been like that, since forever.
cite as fact details where I distinctly remember otherwise.
The “facts” on the internet evolve over time. My favorite to repeat is, God rest his soul, Scott Adams’ case of ideopathic aphasia - he lost much of his ability to speak (probably a mini-stroke, definitely some kind of brain damage) - he blogged about it openly, candidly, it was an engaging story. Then a few years later he underwent a rather strong shift of political outlook he felt he had “worked hard for all his money and shouldn’t be forced to share any of it” - his touchy feely sharing about his brain damage was expunged from the web (to the best of his ability, which, with all that money he worked so hard for, was pretty effective)… but he can’t erase the thousands of memories of people who read his writings at the time.
We need to be teaching media literacy in grade school.
My parents were teachers from the 1970s through the 2010s… my father crusaded to spread the teaching of critical thinking, he did his part, made a difference as much as anyone, but he was on the losing side through those decades. Maybe things will turn around someday, they usually do go in cycles.
utilizing resources on the internet to help them cope in a society that doesn’t like deviance very much.
If anything has deluded you into the idea that deviance is more persecuted today than it was in the past, you have been fed a whopper of a lie. Again, back through my personal knowledge of the 1970s, the open racism, LGBQT intolerance, etc. that was widely practiced back then makes what goes around today look like playtime.
I’m neurodivergent and I’m queer
Go around saying that openly in the 1970s, you wouldn’t get far in most US towns before being beaten into a multi-week hospital stay, or worse.
I suspect more kids would benefit from internet access
I suspect a large part of our current troubles come from “the masses” having internet access, because that gives the internet access to them, and through that we got Cambridge Analytica, and much much more…
robust training in media literacy
Nice sentiment, but the who exactly is going to teach them? I think this is actually a big motivator in the destruction of the US education system.
than would be aided by a device ban in school (or by age-gating social media).
Yeah, I don’t think those are helping anything either - more symptomatic of yet another authoritarianism flex.
My disagreements with the policy are twofold, but I was a weird kid. And I am a weird adult.
Firstly, when my social studies teacher or my American history teacher tries to pass state propaganda as fact, I want to have the internet available to find sources either that confirm what I’m being taught or refut it. And similarly when our chemistry class can only provide a poor, hazy image of what we’re doing, I want to be able to go online and get a better one.
We didn’t have the internet when I was in school in the eighties, and instead, we had shitty textbooks and a state mandated syllabus. It was evident, even then, that we were being indoctrinated with an agenda, and being denied informed consent.
And as a naïve kid, I believed my schooling and grew up Republican… Eventually, I’d learn how much bullshit was spoon fed to me, and that our school districts, in fact, do not have an agenda to equip students for adult life, rather are instruments of control.
And secondly, the internet provides lifelines online for kids at risk, such as neurodivergents, LGBT+, kids in dysfunctional homes. And they should have access to them. I didn’t have those resources, and I believe my outcome is worse for it.
I get it, regarding bullying. Social media harassment is a problem, but by comparison I was cornered and outnumbered three to one by kids twice my size. Kids do not require social media to hurt. Since it was their word against mine school administrators sided with my assailants. Every time. I’d work out later they just hate weakling kids, and believe I should be able to hold my own against such odds.
I can assure you kids will be bullied anyway, just as sex trafficking increased when SESTA / FOSTA cut off internet resources to sex traffickers (and killed personal ads and ended online sex worker support groups.)
But then, I’m neurodivergent and was in that gap in which I was quite bright and interested in learning, but had testing difficulties so I wasn’t eligible for gifted programs. The mainstream school district wasn’t intended for me. But then there wasn’t a place for me at all.
The US state education districts are not being run in good faith, prioritizing obedience over critical thinking skills, ideological doctrine over factual history and enrichment of companies and administrators over paying faculty and budgeting learning materials. Restricting students from their own resources is yet another admission that the US does care what happens to students, and reinforces the notion that schools are not institutions of learning, but detainment centers to lock kids up and keep them out of mischief until they are legally responsible for their actions.
But as I said. I was a weird kid. And my schools assured I would never live it down.
In high school we had a mandatory senior year “Americanism vs Communism” (AVC) class, if ever there were an obvious propaganda slot - taught by retired navy no less. In reality, he didn’t know much about Communism and had the good sense to keep his mouth shut about it, basically taught freshman Civics all over again.
The problem I have with your position is: you can find anything and everything on the internet, from stone cold facts to complete fiction and everything in-between, and especially with AI assistance in building websites it’s becoming harder than ever to differentiate between the two. Now, you get some 9 year old who lives in a 3 generation Faux news viewing household, hears “the facts” from all his family and all their friends every day, armed with a browser full of shortcuts to all the “Best” websites - I, as teacher, absolutely do NOT have time to knock your head off and screw it back on straight, nor would that be a good thing for me to do career wise. FAR FAR easier to get 45 minutes of captive time to say what I want to say - which may or may not be fed to me by the state censor board - and at least give you one perspective instead of having open debate with 30 children and their website “sources” every day, all period long. Having said that, maybe 10% of classroom time should be devoted to intelligent, safe, thoughtful internet research of the topic at hand - but not every time a child thinks they have all the answers.
Our AVC teacher was about 5’4" - MAJOR Napoleon complex - he didn’t give a damn about the anti-communist propaganda, his (mostly failed) goal was to instill respect and discipline in our about to graduate teenage minds… That was his core driver every class every day all 90 days that he “had us.” Lots of teachers have these personal agendas, they’re not all bad, and it’s actually an important part of your education to experience some diversity among your teachers like that - you never know when you’ll meet someone more or less like them in real life, and having that school experience might just teach you how to work better with the versions you meet in real life.
Your doom-scroll will always be waiting there for you at home, if your parents allow it. If you’ve made it to 18 years of age and still feel repressed, you’re welcome to make your own way in the world and discover the truths, lies, and half truths that await you all on your own. I’ll submit: if you’ve got enough skepticism to fact check your teacher in class, you can probably resist the brain washing without needing instant gratification from “sources you trust.” And, classroom time isn’t for you to convince your 12 year old peers how wrong that tool at the front of the room is, you’ll have plenty of time outside of class for that.
My concern is that, as I said, they lied to me and I believed them. My first logic and critical thinking class was in freshman college, where I learned that media literacy is about checking multiple sources that don’t like each other very much. The facts that are consistent between them are most likely the actual facts. I was the sucker who got owned by the indoctrination system.
Media literacy became super important in the aughts during the George W. Bush administration. The White House started giving preferential treatment to correspondents that covered only approved stories and kept the US in a positive light. (It marked the beginning of the end of free journalism within news agencies) Foreign sources started covering the extrajudicial torture programs and the use of PMCs in Iraq and the International War on Terror. It became really important for Americans to cross examine sources to determine for themselves what was really going on.
Today, it creeps me out to hear kids talk about the 9/11 attacks, the Iraq war and the international war on terror, and cite as fact details where I distinctly remember otherwise.
In the present era, we have huge swaths of Americans in FOX News silos, since FOX, like an abusive domestic partner, encourages its viewership to cut off all other sources. We need to be teaching media literacy in grade school. We should be teaching how to use the internet as a tool and not a substitute for social interaction.
When the US proscribed alcohol consumption from 18 years to 21 years, the rate of alcohol related crime and DUIs didn’t change, rather they just got older, and more people were imprisoned for it because they were old enough to know better (allegedly). If we cut off internet access to kids until they’re 18, or even the current proposals to raise the age from 13 to 16, it only means kids will be less experienced and less prepared at a later age.
And kids who are diverse, and fit outside the white, straight, normal mainstream, presently are utilizing resources on the internet to help them cope in a society that doesn’t like deviance very much. These resources literally save lives.
I think an education system that actually took itself seriously, and intended to teach kids in good faith will be able to not only handle kids having internet access, but will be able to integrate its use into education, better preparing children for adulthood.
But also, as I said, I am an outlier. I’m neurodivergent and I’m queer, so I do not have the pulse of the children of the US. In the way I assume not all men are in concurrence with the manosphere, I also submit not all children are daft and need to be taught in single syllables without distractions. If they are, we should get rid of school sports leagues. I suspect more kids would benefit from internet access and robust training in media literacy (including social media savvy) than would be aided by a device ban in school (or by age-gating social media).
Note: There are actual studies about the harms social media has on kids, and the scientific consensus is that harms are significantly less than what is being claimed to promote age verification. It’s looking a lot like the same moral panic that occurred about video games, violent movies and television. But then big social media companies like Facebook, X and Google would enjoy the reduction in competition from smaller sights that would result from an AV mandate, hence they are lobbying to mandate locking up the internet.
Unfortunately, as a young moldable mind, you probably would have been owned faster and harder by the unregulated internet than any school teacher ever could.
It always was. The difference for Bush Jr was that Americans could pull up Al Jazerra, RT, and directly chat with all kinds of people all over the globe - so the press had to start pressing harder. Back with Bush Sr in Kuwait, I had a friend from Jordan who spent his evenings listening to his short-wave to get “real news” about what was going on back home - what he heard was apparently a lot more accurate and complete than what we got from TV. It has always been like that, since forever.
The “facts” on the internet evolve over time. My favorite to repeat is, God rest his soul, Scott Adams’ case of ideopathic aphasia - he lost much of his ability to speak (probably a mini-stroke, definitely some kind of brain damage) - he blogged about it openly, candidly, it was an engaging story. Then a few years later he underwent a rather strong shift of political outlook he felt he had “worked hard for all his money and shouldn’t be forced to share any of it” - his touchy feely sharing about his brain damage was expunged from the web (to the best of his ability, which, with all that money he worked so hard for, was pretty effective)… but he can’t erase the thousands of memories of people who read his writings at the time.
My parents were teachers from the 1970s through the 2010s… my father crusaded to spread the teaching of critical thinking, he did his part, made a difference as much as anyone, but he was on the losing side through those decades. Maybe things will turn around someday, they usually do go in cycles.
If anything has deluded you into the idea that deviance is more persecuted today than it was in the past, you have been fed a whopper of a lie. Again, back through my personal knowledge of the 1970s, the open racism, LGBQT intolerance, etc. that was widely practiced back then makes what goes around today look like playtime.
Go around saying that openly in the 1970s, you wouldn’t get far in most US towns before being beaten into a multi-week hospital stay, or worse.
I suspect a large part of our current troubles come from “the masses” having internet access, because that gives the internet access to them, and through that we got Cambridge Analytica, and much much more…
Nice sentiment, but the who exactly is going to teach them? I think this is actually a big motivator in the destruction of the US education system.
Yeah, I don’t think those are helping anything either - more symptomatic of yet another authoritarianism flex.